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1A: | Hi. I'm an agnostic and I understand you're a believer.
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B: | Yes, I postulate and believe in a God, souls, miracles, life
after death, and so forth.
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2A: | Since you postulate all this, the burden of proof is on you. I
can't agree with you yet.
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B: | But the proof is all around us. The miracles of space, time,
life, the beauties of nature, all created by God.
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3A: | But who created God?
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B: | He always was and always will be!
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4A: | Now doesn't that strike you as a much greater miracle than space,
or time, or even the evolution from chemical to man through
mutation, natural selection, and survival of the fittest?
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B: | It is incomprehensible and obscene to think that man could have
evolved from a chemical slime and monkeys!
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5A: | But an infinite God existing before the creation of the universe
and existing after its finish??
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B: | Aha, you're beginning to understand!
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6A: | Hmmm. Well, now how do you feel about free will? Does it exist?
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B: | Yes. Our free will decisions throughout life, such as to sin or
to accept the Lord, will be judged upon our death to determine
where we'll spend eternity.
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7A: | You mean we continue on after death? Surely the blackness after
death is the same as the blackness before birth?
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B: | Not at all - your soul just doesn't disappear, you know!
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8A: | It seems to have appeared easily enough, from nowhere, eh?
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B: | Each soul was created by God and exists forever.
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9A: | I guess if I can accept a God I can accept souls. What's a soul?
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B: | It's that spirit that leaves the body after death.
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10A: | Wow, you mean something weightless leaves the body and spends
eternity somewhere?
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B: | Sure. You must have faith, or YOUR soul'll be forever in Hell!
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11A: | God forbid!
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B: | Oh VERY funny.
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12A: | Tell me, do dogs have souls?
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B: | No. They're not human.
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13A: | Does this mean, after they die, dogs spend eternity in Hell?
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B: | No, they just cease to exist.
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14A: | Aha, you're beginning to understand!
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B: | Hmmm. It doesn't look as though we'll agree very much.
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15A: | Amen!
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B: | You ARE funny. I hope to know you in Heaven.
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16A: | I would happily spend eternity in Heaven since I desperately
fear death - a dog's death.
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B: | Accepting Jesus Christ would relieve you of that fear.
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17A: | Yes, I think it would. But would God want me to profess a belief
I didn't really feel? I think not - it would be hypocritical of
me. And I feel hypocrits belong in Hell!
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B: | I say, you ARE mixed up! I'll pray for God to reveal Himself to
you in some way.
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18A: | I hope He'll do it in a way that can't be explained by luck,
statistical chance, coincidence, or as a very realistic dream.
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B: | I'm sure He will. Be ready for it.
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19A: | Getting back to free will, when you make a decision, does it
affect all future events in the universe?
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B: | Of course.
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20A: | Does God know all?
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B: | Yes, sure.
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21A: | The future, too?
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B: | God knows the past, the present, and the future in every detail!
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22A: | If God knows the future, then your free will decisions cannot
affect this future. Praying, for instance, can never change
anything. Gee whiz, God can't even change His mind, or tomorrow'd
be different than He once thought it would've been!
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B: | God is perfection. He'll never need to change His mind. God
knows what all my decisions and all my prayers will be. They are
predetermined.
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23A: | But then your will isn't free!
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B: | The fact that God knows what your decisions will be, that is,
that they're predetermined, doesn't mean your decisions aren't
freely made.
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24A: | Oh no. I feel a free will decision, almost by definition, can't
be known in advance!
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B: | Another point of disagreement, then.
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25A: | And if everything is predetermined, and God isn't going to
change anything, then His presence is unnecessary - He might as
well be dead! Maybe God IS dead! Maybe God never lived at all, eh?
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B: | Show me a watch, and I'll show you a watchmaker!
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26A: | If your Watchmaker in the sky is so beneficent, why does He
inflict so much warfare, sickness, floods, tragedy and misery?
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B: | In a world of free will, you have to expect some evil.
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27A: | But free will can't cause floods. You've got quite a God there!
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B: | God is testing us. The more suffering one endures, without
losing faith, the better his chances of making it to Heaven.
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28A: | But if God knows all, then He already knows if we're going to
Heaven or Hell?
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B: | That is correct.
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29A: | But this is inconsistent with your previous statement saying we
WILL be judged. It seems we've already BEEN judged.
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B: | At death you're merely informed of this predetermined decision.
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30A: | So why bother with a universe, or life, or wars, and so on. Why
doesn't God just create His Heaven, Hell, Purgatory, Limbo, etc.,
& put all the people ever to exist in their respective places now?
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B: | God moves in mysterious ways His wonders to perform!
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31A: | Well Jesus H. Christ! - Your logic escapes me!
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B: | "H"? What's the "H" stand for?
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32A: | Oh, didn't you know? The "H" stands for "Howard".
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B: | "Howard"? Tsk, impossible! How so?
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33A: | Why, my good fellow, it's right in the Lord's prayer:
"Our Father, Who art in Heaven, Howard be thy name ...."
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B: | Ha Ha Ha. Well now I'm not so sure I want to know you in Heaven.
After all, I couldn't take an eternity of that sort of humor.
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34A: | Worry not. I probably wouldn't make it to Heaven anyway.
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B: | Humph, with jokes like that I can guarantee you won't. But I'll
pray for you - it might help.
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35A: | Help my jokes, you mean?
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B: | That's beyond even God's infinite power!
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36A: | Now when we pray, and God answers the prayer by changing the
course of history, He knew all the time that we were going to pray
and that He was going to change history?
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B: | Exactly right.
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37A: | Well I'm damned!
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B: | Probably, but I'll pray for you anyway.
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38A: | Better not waste your time since my future is already
predetermined and known to God.
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B: | Then it's also predetermined that I'll pray for you. In any
event, a prayer or two can't do any harm - and you might be
strengthened against Satan and saved from Hell.
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39A: | Well, thanks a lot if you think it'll help. By the way, why did
God create a Satan and a Hell?
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B: | So that people could exercise their free will for good or evil.
After all, if there were no Satan there'd be no temptation nor sin.
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40A: | Oh, I see, but is it really a sin to be tempted by some of God's
lovely handiwork that slinks before us all the time?
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B: | Well, being tempted isn't so bad - it's the sinning that God
really objects to.
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41A: | Now, in reviewing our chat, don't you feel that your logic
leaves so much to be desired that all your original postulates and
beliefs must be rejected or re-examined?
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B: | Billions of people, for 1000's of years, have accepted a God.
Re-examination is unnecessary & rejection is out of the question!
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42A: | It seems to me that our discussion so far clearly indicates that
these billions of people have no basis for their blind beliefs. In
fact, millions of man-lives, over the last few centuries, have been
devoted to building up an all-encompassing picture of the universe.
This has been done by applying the disciplines of anthropology,
biology, geology, microscopy, astronomy, physics, mathematics,
chemistry, and a host of others. This resulting picture is so very
beautiful and self-consistent, down to the minutest details, that
only very minor adjustments can be expected in the future.
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B: | Come now, these "disciplines" are clearly the work of God and
given to mankind so that we can understand and appreciate the
beauty of the universe that God created. To use the laws that God
created to argue against God seems a logical inconsistency.
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43A: | These disciplines exist, and so I can use them to strengthen my
argument. If God created these disciplines, and the laws governing
them, then the proper application of these laws should point to the
existence of their creator. In fact, they don't. But since the
burden of the proof of a God is on you (since I can't be asked to
prove a negative), it is YOU, then, that is guilty of a logical
inconsistency when you state with such great certainty that God
exists despite the many philosophical problems with your arguments.
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B: | But you must admit you have absolutely no idea how the universe
was created. You pick at our logic yet offer no alternative!
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44A: | Sure, there's lots we don't know. Why just 80 years ago we had no
idea where the sun got its energy. We have yet to uncover some
concepts and relationships concerning space, time, action at a
distance, life, and many lesser problems. Remember, it's only 1978.
Most of our knowledge was acquired in just the last few decades. We
have a long time to answer such questions. And answered they'll be,
soon, in the next 10, 100, or 1000 years. On the other hand, your
logic appears so faulty and inconsistent, based on hearsay & magic,
that our dialog almost constitutes a proof of the non-existence of
a God, life after death, souls, miracles, and so on.
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B: | Sheer speculation! You can't prove any of that.
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45A: | Proof isn't possible, but the circumstantial evidence is so
convincing that I feel an objective jury would reject all your
postulates and beliefs!
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B: | You seem pretty sure of yourself. What do you think are the
chances you're wrong?
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46A: | Oh, one in a million - even less!
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B: | Wow! But you must realize that many people, just as bright as
you, are just as certain there IS a God? And remember, you've
admitted not knowing a lot about space and time and action at a
distance, so will you at least meet me half way and go 50-50?
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47A: | Nope! One in a million and no more! What's your point?
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B: | Well, a million's a large number, but OK. Now how long do you
think the universe will exist in the future?
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48A: | I saw one study that went to 10 to the 100th years.
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B: | Wow! That's a long time. Now how much money would you require
to give up EVERY POSSIBILITY of eternal life after death,
or at least for those 10 to the 100th years?
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49A: | What kind of a darned question is that?
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B: | Money, my friendly adversary, allows us to compare apples and
oranges. In this case I'm using the medium of money to get an
idea of just how much of an atheist or agnostic you really are.
So, come on - what's the least money you'd take to give up
ANY AND EVERY CHANCE of life after death?
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50A: | OK, OK, give me a second to think... Let's see, if a year of my
life is worth $100,000... oh, uh, well let's say $10,000... and
then we multiply by that 1 in a million chance that I'm wrong...
and, uh, times 10 to the power of a hundred... uhh, hmmm... the
answer seems to come to something like 10 to the 98th dollars!!
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B: | And since there are less than 10 to just the 14th dollars in
the whole world, you seem to be telling me that you wouldn't
take all the money in the world to give up your chance of life
after death! Is that so?
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51A: | Ummm, well, uhh, well... I suppose that, uhh, to be completely
consistent with all my beliefs....
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B: | I don't know why you hesitate. I've just shown your thinking to
be off by 10 to the 84th power!
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52A: | Well .... I suppose you may be right!
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B: | So we agree after all - I wouldn't take all the money in the
world either!
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53A: | Uhh, let me think about this a bit. I'll be back tomorrow, OK?
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B: | I'll see ya tomorrow.
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© 1978